41. Curiosity over Judgement - with Jennifer Edwards

Curiosity Over Judgment

In this episode, host Petra Agthe is joined by Dr. Jennifer Edwards — veterinarian, former practice owner, and leadership coach — for a conversation about what it really means to suspend judgment and bring curiosity into our conversations, our leadership, and our relationship with ourselves.

The conversation explores how curiosity and judgment are, almost mutually exclusive and how curiosity connects to active listening, to humility, and to the courage it takes to admit we don't already know what someone else is thinking or feeling.

This conversation covers: 

• Why curiosity requires letting go of assumptions, and how it opens the door to deeper, more meaningful conversations
• The link between curiosity and humility — and why being willing to "not know" builds real connection
• Perfectionism in veterinary medicine, and how curiosity, rather than self-criticism, can become a gateway to growth
•  Leading diverse teams with curiosity: recognising that people think, process, and work differently — and why that's a strength, not a problem
• Practical tools for cultivating curiosity, including how to ask open-ended questions that invite people to share more
• Knowing when curiosity isn't the answer — boundaries, and when it's okay to simply end a conversation
• Turning curiosity inward: how self-compassion, rather than self-judgment, can change our relationship with ourselves — especially during burnout or moments of imposter syndrome

Ready to find out more about how curiosity can transform your life? Then listen in or read the transcript and join our conversation! 

Where to find out more about Dr Jennifer Edwards and her work:

• Jennifers website: https://drjenniferedwards.com/ 
• Jennifers Resilient Vet Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/07gFs5TqFFM5yBUNEAaHCa
• Find Jennifer on social media: 
  • Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/drjenniferedwards/
  • Facebook https://www.facebook.com/drjenniferedwards
  • Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drjenniferedwards/

Resources you may also be interested in: 

Books: 

• Energy Leadership by Bruce Schneider
• Humble Inquiry by Edgar and Peter Schein

TV Series: Ted Lasso 

Previous Vet Mind Works Episodes related to the topic: 

• Non-violent Communication 
• The Power of Connection
• Active listening 
• Self-compassion for Imposter Syndrome
• Self-compassion

Join the conversation:

What resonated with you in this episode? Have you ever tried to approach conversations and interpersonal interactions with greater curiosity? We would love to hear your reflections. Share, rate, and send us your thoughts and suggestions for future guests and topics.

This podcast is in partnership with the Veterinary Information Network (VIN). More about VIN here.

We value your feedback! Please email us your thoughts, ideas and suggestions to vetmindworks@gmail.com or follow us on LinkedIn and Facebook

Want to find out more about our hosts ? Follow on LinkedIn

https://www.linkedin.com/in/petra-agthe-562bb65b

https://www.linkedin.com/in/clive-elwood-b7aba216/

Credits: 
Music- Deep Ambience by Coma-Media, Pixabay; Images for Artwork- OpenClipart-Vectors, Pixabay

Transcript

Episode 41. Curiosity Over Judgment - with Jennifer Edwards

Petra Agthe

This is the VetMindWorks Podcast — a podcast for everyone in the veterinary profession who is interested in how our minds work, and how to work with our minds. Our mission is to share ideas, methods, and skills, enabling us to find better ways of working and living. The content of this podcast is entirely based on our personal experiences and opinions, and does not represent the opinions of our employers or companies we work for. Podcast episodes may contain descriptions of difficult life situations and references to mental health challenges. We strive to ensure that all our published content is correct; however, we cannot accept responsibility for any issues that may arise from the practical application of the contents of this podcast.

Hello, and thank you so much for joining this episode of the VetMindWorks Podcast. I'm your host, Petra Agthe, and I'm really looking forward to digging deeper into today's topic, which is curiosity.

I personally think that curiosity is a great life skill to have, and there's actually evidence that it's associated with greater life satisfaction and positive social relationships. This is beautifully illustrated in one of my all-time favourite TV shows — one that's not only incredibly funny, but also carries a lot of life lessons and wisdom. That show is Ted Lasso. For those of you who haven't come across it yet: Ted Lasso is an American football coach who comes to the UK to train a Premier League football team without knowing a single thing about the English version of football.

Here's the thing — while the series is superficially about football, it's actually about something much deeper. Otherwise, I wouldn't have watched it; I'm not really interested in football, but my attention was drawn to the series because I heard Buddhist meditation teachers talking about it, and getting really enthusiastic — and if you know anything about Buddhist meditation teachers, it's quite unusual for them to get so excited about a TV series.

This show is really about human relationships and team dynamics. Over several seasons, the viewer can observe how these relationships and dynamics change, and how, over time, Coach Lasso transforms a dysfunctional club into a team that's eager to learn and give their best together, from the kit man right through to the club's manager.

Of course, Coach Lasso has many tools in his toolbox, and he models many great interpersonal skills — one of the strongest being curiosity. He doesn't walk into a room assuming he already knows who someone is or what they're capable of. He asks questions, he stays open, and more often than not, it's curiosity that allows him to connect with people who everyone else may have already written off.

There's one famous quote from the show which goes, "be curious, not judgmental" — which is really mirrored in the title of our episode today: Curiosity Over Judgment. I was really delighted to find a great guest who was willing to have a conversation about this intriguing life skill, and she does this with great honesty and humility.

This guest is Jennifer Edwards, and here's a little bit more about her. Dr. Jennifer Edwards helps leaders get honest about what's actually driving how they communicate, decide, and lead — then she equips them to do something different. She's a conscious leadership coach, professional speaker, and creator of The Core Element, a framework that helps leaders spot the mindset and behaviour patterns shaping their leadership, then shift them to build stronger teams. Before coaching, she spent more than 25 years in veterinary medicine, including building and selling a multi-doctor practice — real-world leadership experience that now shapes how she coaches, speaks, and consults. She's an ICF-accredited coach and co-host of the Resilient Vet podcast, and her work now reaches growth-oriented leaders across industries who want to lead with more intention, presence, and self-awareness.

Before you hear more of my conversation with Jennifer, here's a little more information about our partners, VIN Europe.

This podcast is supported by VIN Europe. Since 1991, the Veterinary Information Network — VIN — has been helping colleagues by providing all the knowledge you need for your next case: instant access to drug formularies, over 260 veterinary specialists in every specialty imaginable, weekly rounds, CPD, and its own virtual veterinary internship programme. You name it, VIN has got it. Are you ready to join this independent community of nearly 100,000 colleagues? VIN is, and always will be, independent for vets. Free trial memberships are available at VIN.com, and if you're a student, VIN is absolutely free.

It's a really great pleasure for me to welcome Jennifer today for our conversation, so thank you so much for coming.

Jennifer Edwards

Well, thank you for having me. I think this is a very important topic, and I'm very excited for it.

Petra Agthe

We were just having a little catch-up prior to the recording, and we were reflecting on how we came to this title. I also remember that you are one of my many LinkedIn connections that I've made over the years, and I'm very grateful for that. So, Jennifer, starting really with the first question: we are talking about curiosity, and what I would really be interested to know — and I'm curious about it, pun intended — is, what does the term curiosity over judgment mean to you?

Jennifer Edwards

We're all entering into conversations, communications, and interactions all day long, and to me, curiosity is the foundation of all of it. I don't mean informational conversations, like what time do we have to go to dinner — I'm talking about real conversations. When we bring curiosity, there are a couple of aspects to this. When we bring curiosity, we are letting go of any and all assumptions, and all ideas that we already know. Very often when people are in conversations, they're listening, but they're listening with a filter that they already know what the person's going to say, or they already know the outcome. They already know what the other person's thinking, the meaning, whatever — so it's almost like we're pretending to be in a conversation when we're actually in a one-way dialogue in our heads. So, bringing in that element of curiosity requires letting go of all of that, and actually being open — open not only to hearing what the other person is truly saying, but then also engaging in the conversation in such a way that encourages the person to actually share more depth, more meaning, more elaboration, whatever the case may be. The second part of what curiosity means for me is that it's the opposite of judgment. The way I see it, judgment and curiosity are mutually exclusive — almost inversely proportionate. So the more curiosity is present, the less judgment is present, and vice versa. When you are being curious, in my opinion, by definition, you're not being judgmental, and when you are being judgmental, in that moment you are not being curious, because you already know — you've already formed an opinion. What's there to be curious about? The judgment is done, the gavel is down, end of discussion. So, to me, that's what curiosity means in general inside of a conversation, as well as how it relates to the idea of judgment.

Petra Agthe

That is quite rich — it is really interesting. And it relates, as you were talking through your definition — I find it always very interesting to start with a definition, because I've found that so many people have got slightly different flavours of a concept in their minds. As we were talking through that, I was struck by how this relates to active listening, and to listening to understand rather than to reply first — how that curiosity helps you not to come into the conversation with preformed ideas, or, if you have, which we all do to a degree — I mean, our minds are judging machines to a degree, so it is human — but having that conscious step, and the reminder to step back and just let, suspend that judgment, and get curious about this moment. I was very intrigued by the notion that curiosity and judgment are mutually exclusive, and I think that's probably important for the listener to hold in mind as we move on in our conversation — that this is the take on curiosity that we are talking about here. So it sounds like it's a little bit combined with humility.

Jennifer Edwards

I guess, in a way, yes. Again, it all comes down to semantics and definitions, and how we define humility, but there is a bit of humility required to give up that you already know. Think of a child being curious about the world, or curious about the little bugs in their backyard — there's a humility in "I don't know everything." I don't already know what you're thinking, what you mean, what you want, and so that openness to learn, and giving up the — interestingly — the insecurity that leads to the desire to feel that you already know everything, there's a vulnerability there, there's a humility, but there's also the opportunity for a deeper level of connection and, quite frankly, information gathering at the end of the day.

Petra Agthe

Yeah, there's that as well, isn't there? Because it's gathering more data around what is going on for the other person and their perspective on things. Thank you — and I apologize for that unplanned question, which just popped into my head.

Jennifer Edwards

Oh, that's okay, I like those kinds of things. It was interesting — I hadn't thought of that, but it was actually a good word there, because it does require humility.

Petra Agthe

I was recently reading the book *Humble Inquiry*, which is what I thought of. Anyway, so thank you — the connection to humility is interesting. As you say, it depends really on the definition we use of humility, but if we take it as a sense of being prepared to not know, even if it's just for a short moment, then it probably fits quite well. In my head, this is also how it can fit in quite easily with psychological safety, and building that connection in the conversation. So, great — thank you for your reflection on that as well.

Petra Agthe

I'd be interested to hear in which way the skill of prioritizing curiosity over judgment has been helpful for you personally, in your professional life or in life in general — have you got any concrete examples of that?

Jennifer Edwards

I do, and before I give an example, I just want to point out something you said earlier that I feel is important, because it was very true and insightful — and that is that we all judge, and we all lack curiosity at times. It's just part of being human. So, I want listeners to consider, as they're hearing this, that this is not about a hundred percent perfection all the time. Bringing curiosity into your life, into your conversations, into your relationships, is more about the intention — that becomes who you are as an intention, and how you live across all domains. At the same time, there are going to be times when it's not present, and that's okay. It's noticing, maybe — but when you do notice, saying, "How might I shift this? How might I bring more curiosity?" So, that leads to my example, and I have so many, but the first one that popped into my mind when you asked me that question was my daughter. I could come up with something about my team when I owned my practice, of course, but really, the biggest thing has been my daughter, who's going to be turning 16 in a couple of weeks. Especially over the past couple of years, I have really been very intentional about bringing curiosity to her — to ways that she's different, ways that she might be behaving, because she processes differently. We're all different, we all operate, our brains are all different, and as she's developing now into a young woman and not a little girl, one day I just all of a sudden saw her with different eyes, and started approaching her more with curiosity and inquiry, and letting her know: I want to know what you need, I want to honor and respect who you are — not who you might think we want you to be, or who I want you to be, or society, or whatever. It's really changed my perspective of her, and I feel it has also provided her a bit of a safe space. I'd say that, for me, is probably the most prominent example of intentionally bringing curiosity when I noticed — and again, relating to what I just said — when I noticed that it wasn't there. It's not about beating myself up in that moment; it's about saying, okay, I noticed that it's not there, how can I bring it forth more?

Petra Agthe

I love that, and thank you for sharing such a personal example. I haven't got any children myself, but I think generally, with anybody who we share the space with, and anybody who we either work with or live with — in any of those relationships, I think this can be so valuable. Thank you also for bringing up the word perfectionism, because we work in a profession of perfectionists, and we want to get it right, and then it might be that we notice, "oh gosh, I haven't been curious," and now we're beating ourselves up over it. It's absolutely not about that. Perhaps it's also about starting small, in those moments when it probably comes a little bit easier, and just noticing how that feels, and then how the relationship perhaps also changes through that.

Jennifer Edwards

Yes, it's very powerful when you introduce that, and I love what you just said. I do chuckle at this, because, of course, as a veterinarian, I relate, as most veterinarians do, to this idea of perfectionism. It's not bad or wrong, it just sets you up for failure. What might it look like to bring curiosity to perfectionism? Instead of beating yourself up when you don't feel good because something didn't go perfectly, you can say, "oh, I'm doing that again," or you can say, "wow, let's take a look at this — what am I making this mean about myself? What story is inside of me that's making me feel the need to be perfect, or making it so catastrophic when I'm not?" So, even at times when we're not feeling good inside and we have unpleasant emotions, we don't have to make them go away, but we can actually bring curiosity to ourselves, and it becomes this gold mine of an opportunity for growth and development, because when you're feeling like garbage and you bring curiosity to that, your opportunity for growth right there is immense — that is the moment when you can actually shift something for yourself, if you allow it.

Petra Agthe

Yeah, if you allow it — I guess if you have space for it at the moment. And the other thing is that you don't have to do these things alone. Sometimes that can happen together, in a conversation, right?

Jennifer Edwards

Yeah, and much easier that way, because it's hard to really see things for ourselves.

Petra Agthe

As always, it's interesting to see how all these things are interconnected and associated with each other, aren't they? Thinking about curiosity — you also mentioned something that's just come back to me, something you mentioned earlier, about seeing the needs of your daughter. We were having a conversation around what she might need — I can't quite remember how you phrased it, but the word "need" popped up. That made me also think of a podcast episode that has just come out earlier this month, about non-violent communication, and how, with that form of communication, we connect with the needs of the other person — which, often, is also just the need to be heard, which you named indirectly at the beginning of this conversation. So you can see how, through bringing that curiosity to the need of the other person, and listening for more needs underneath, that can help the relationship. That was just an additional reflection on what you said.

Jennifer Edwards

Yeah, I love that.

Petra Agthe

Moving on to something slightly more, perhaps, challenging — it might be similar, but I was just wondering whether you had an additional example of a challenge. Obviously, a relationship with a teenage daughter could be described as a challenge, perhaps — a relationship with my unruly dog can sometimes be a challenge too. But have you got any other examples, perhaps either personal or professional, where you've been able to overcome something with curiosity?

Jennifer Edwards

There are so many. There are a lot of examples in my life where I've brought curiosity in and it's made a difference. If I were to think of something more on the professional side, I would think about times when I owned my animal hospital, and bringing curiosity to some of my employees. I guess one in particular was bringing curiosity to the different ways that people think and process. There was one time in particular where something in the computer had to be done a certain way, and this one employee kept doing it incorrectly, but she was so nice about it. We'd show her and she'd go, "oh, okay," and then she would do it incorrectly again, and I'd point to the computer screen and say, "this has to go there." "Oh, oh, okay, I'll fix it." This kept happening over and over. My first knee-jerk thought in my head was, what the heck, why won't she just do it — of course I didn't say that to her, but that's what I was wondering. Then, all of a sudden, one day it occurred to me: she just doesn't see it. She's not trying to be difficult, she's trying to please, she's trying to do a good job, she just doesn't see these details. It's not bad, it's not wrong. I got very curious about how she does see it, and what might work better for her to help her do her job more appropriately. What led from that, in general, as a leader, is I started really looking at everybody that way, and ultimately starting to question: does person A belong in job A, or should person A be in job B, and person B be in job A? I started to really bring more of a curiosity and an openness — and this was probably 10, 12 years ago, as I was learning more about people — and bringing more of a curiosity and an openness that we're all different, and we all process differently, and that's okay, it's actually beautiful. With that, what is the best way to structure a team so that, first, the team is the most effective, but more importantly, so that all of the members of the team can thrive to their fullest potential, and be happy and satisfied and feel good about what they're doing, instead of, "hey, you messed this up again and again and again." She was very nice about it, and we were very nice about it, but that still doesn't mean that she didn't feel terrible inside that she kept making the same mistake. It was something very little, it wasn't a big deal, but it kept getting pointed out to her, and it occurred to me — wow, that must not have felt very good for her. So instead of continuing to give her tasks that she clearly is not the greatest at, why don't we change and give her the tasks that she is great at? And that's what we did, and everything was problem solved. But it took that element of curiosity for me to start to look at all of that, and at everybody, from that point forward, in a different way.

Petra Agthe

I love that example too — it very much resonates with my experiences when I started out as a leader who had really not had any formal training whatsoever, and I came across these things and I was like, how is this possible, that this doesn't get done in this way, because I just assumed that people were thinking the same as me. Surprise, that's not the case. What a wonderful example.

Jennifer Edwards

Well, thank you. It really isn't the case, and — speaking to something you just said, which was me as well — I opened my animal hospital in 2007, and I had no leadership training. What did I get in vet school for leadership training? Nothing. I figured it out, and, luckily, I was very passionate about learning — self-development and all of the things I'd been studying for so long. That's part of the reason why now I'm so passionate about helping leaders, because you serendipitously figure these things out as you go, but that's only after making a lot of mistakes — which you're going to make anyway. But if leaders can get the training that they need to bring consciousness and intentionality to their leadership, so that not only do they not have to make some of these mistakes, and have that impact on the people they're leading, but also the impact on them — because, as a leader, when I realized that, I felt terrible, and other mistakes I made as a leader — so, a lot of this is, I just wanted to speak to that, because what you said — I bet a ton of leaders out there who are listening are nodding their heads, like, "yep, figuring it out," building the plane as I'm flying it, kind of a thing. I just feel like we can offer more support so that they can do so more effectively and more confidently.

Petra Agthe

I could not agree more. And the same also arguably applies to ourselves, because how many times did we struggle with something and we didn't get our head around it — sometimes it might just be a question of having a different way of explaining it, a different way of accessing that same thing, or thinking about it differently, but sometimes it's also about, well, that just doesn't serve me. So, is there either a complete alternative, or, as you say, is there something about the job role that needs tweaking? I think just also realising we don't all have to conform to the same thing — and, as you also mentioned, there's something beautiful in that, and there's also a neurobiological and neurophysiological underpinning to this, so it's not — I'm not saying all of these things, but a lot of these things — there is a real physical reason for a lot of these things. Approaching it from a sort of scientific perspective — I suppose we would understand, we all know that a Labrador functions differently to a Border Collie, for example, or doesn't.

Jennifer Edwards

Very differently.

Petra Agthe

So, coming at it from — and I don't want to compare people to dogs, but I think principally, we are wired differently, and so the situation is that if we understand that, and coming back to that curiosity angle — if we understand that, and are able to connect with ourselves and with other people and have conversations about this, we can end up in a situation where everybody feels supported to work at their best, and that is where the joy and the work satisfaction comes in, right?

Jennifer Edwards

Yes, absolutely. Back then, when I was referring to that time, there wasn't as much conversation out there about neurodiversity and neuroinclusivity, and I'm certainly not an expert in that domain — I've learned a lot through others, and I really love the work that some of our colleagues are doing, especially in veterinary medicine, to bring to light how that plays a role, and the impact that has on individuals, especially when there is a lack of curiosity in leadership as to what certain individuals need to thrive, and to bring forward their best selves, and to do a great job, and to feel good about what they're doing — all of those things, because that is different for different people, regardless of labels. I just feel like the climate today is a bit different than it was then, and I feel like we also have a long way to go with awareness. But it all circles back to curiosity. Like I said, I'm not an expert in that domain, but I have really been following some people who are, and just learning more that I didn't know that I didn't know, and trying to elevate my awareness — but it all comes back to curiosity, it all circles back.

Petra Agthe

Yeah, it does, doesn't it? Thank you for the shout-out to people who are doing a lot of work in that space — I will have an episode on neurodiversity here at some point. It's been a long journey, we haven't got there yet, but it will happen. So, thank you for those reflections — that's very true, and it feeds into that psychological safety again, and the safety that diverse people need in order to do their best job — and there's just plenty of evidence that, if we can make it work, it creates win-wins.

Jennifer Edwards

Yes, absolutely.

Petra Agthe

So, now the tricky bit, perhaps. One of the challenges is, as we were touching on a little bit earlier in the conversation, around how easily judgments come up, and how it can be difficult to make connection with curiosity in certainly challenging moments. So, I was just wondering whether you had any tips for the listeners on how curiosity may be cultivated, and whether there are any specific techniques or tips?

Jennifer Edwards

Yeah, so the first thing that comes to mind is, as you just said, judgments come up, and, first and foremost, have that be okay. You're not going to stop it, you can't throw them away, just acknowledge them. But here's the key: a judgment is nothing more than a thought, or a belief. A belief is just a persistent thought over time that you start to hold as a truth. So, you don't have to stop your thoughts, but you also don't have to believe them. So, allow your judgments to be, because, well, they're just going to be, whether you want it or not. Get in the habit, cultivate the habit of asking questions, even if they're in your mind — questions are curious, curiosity is expressed through questioning. That's kind of, to me, what it means — you want to know more about something. When you're curious, a curious kitten is exploring — they're like, ooh, what's behind that little paper bag? A curious child is like, what happens when I do this, or do that? Curiosity is based in questions, and so when we cultivate the ability to ask questions, especially open-ended questions, that's being curious — it's actually quite simple. The hard part is remembering to bring questions, and practicing. Get with a friend and just practice asking each other questions. Open-ended questions start with "how" or "what" — how might that be affecting you, what does that mean for you, what would you have preferred, what would have worked better for you? And when your friend answers you, you just make up a scenario, and your friend answers you, and you just keep coming back at them with another question, and another question, starting with "what," or starting with "how" — not "why," why can incite defensiveness — and not yes-no questions. "Well, did you like that?" "Yes." Well, then the conversation's over. So, open-ended questions that lead to more conversation — that is bringing curiosity. In the moment that you're asking a question, you have also, unless it's inauthentic, given up that you already know. Sometimes, I guess, we do ask questions that we think we already know the answer to, but thinking that you already know the answer, and knowing that you already know the answer, are two different things. So even if there's a small possibility that you're open to hearing something new, you're cultivating curiosity, and the more you do it, especially if you can practice, then it'll get easier. If you don't want to role play with a friend, because that is awkward sometimes, just practice it in little tiny moments — at the grocery store, with the cashier, with the silliest little things — you can start to cultivate open-ended questions. "How do you like working here?" You could just say to the cashier at the store — there are so many ways you can just start to practice and bring the skill into your life.

Petra Agthe

Great. As I said, the steps are actually quite small, it's just remembering them, and doing them. First of all, noticing that judgments might come up, and acknowledging them — not trying to wrestle with them too much, just mindfully holding the space for them, and not acting on them. But rather, practicing asking questions, and then a good tip that I heard was asking open-ended questions, so that it's not preset answers — so, not closed questions, but questions that start with "how" and "what," ideally, so that the other person has got space to elaborate if they wish to do so. It's surprising how many people do, because it gives an opportunity to just share a little bit about ourselves, doesn't it?

Jennifer Edwards

Being curious, in my opinion, is a huge gift to others. People — when you're curious and you ask questions, then they're like, oh — you'll actually physically see them lean in sometimes, they get excited to talk. A lot of people really don't ever have an opportunity to talk when somebody truly is interested and truly is listening. The one thing I would add to everything you recapped there is: with your judgments, it's not just about not acting on them, but you don't have to even believe them. Just remember that a judgment could be your truth in the moment, but it's not the truth — it's just your truth in the moment, and you don't have to argue about whether or not it's true. You could just be like, maybe it is, and I'm going to set it aside, I don't have to believe that thought — let me find out more. In five minutes, most likely, you're going to end up with a different truth than you had when you started. So it's just letting go of the idea that everything that I feel is true is actually true. It doesn't mean it's false, it just doesn't necessarily mean that it's true. And so, when we can just hold that space, that alone sets up the grounds for curiosity to come in.

Petra Agthe

I absolutely love what you said about judgments being the truth in the moment — what a great phrase. And I think one thing you also mentioned earlier on was that intentionality to be curious and build connections — so it's from that standpoint.

Jennifer Edwards

That's the standpoint, isn't it? Yeah — it's kind of like curiosity doesn't become... it's not that it becomes something that you do, it becomes who you are. It becomes a way of life, a way of being, a way of approaching interactions, communications, relationships, life in general. So first you focus on it as a behavior, practicing how do I do it — it's easier to practice in a non-stressful situation so that you can do it in a stressful situation. Then we move out of focusing on it as a behavior, and it starts to become more of an embodied way of being — a demonstration and an expression of who you are as a curious person.

Petra Agthe

So it becomes more of a trait than a temporary state.

Jennifer Edwards

Yes.

Petra Agthe

I think that will hopefully have encouraged a lot of our listeners to practice curiosity. I'd also like to ask whether there might be any pitfalls, or situations where this skill is unhelpful — because things are sometimes neither good nor bad. Have you come across any obstacles or particular caveats?

Jennifer Edwards

Yes, I definitely can think of some situations where this isn't what a person would want to bring. And that's a really important point, because a lot of times inside of these conversations, it can start to land like being curious is good, not being curious is bad. What's really important, as far as the world of boundaries goes, is that you do not have to bring curiosity to every situation. If there's a situation where somebody is being inappropriate, where somebody's not being nice, somebody's bullying you — whatever it is — you can just end the conversation, you can just make a statement. You don't have to be curious about why somebody's not being nice to you. So, in the world of appropriate behavior and appropriate boundaries towards inappropriate behavior, I would really just emphasize: you don't have to bring curiosity. It can just be a hard, "oh no, you don't," end of conversation. Sometimes when people feel that they need to be nice, or they need to be curious, and those sorts of things — and I've experienced this myself in the past — we may put up with and tolerate more than we want to, or should.

Petra Agthe

So it's context-dependent, and there's a degree of wisdom we need to practice with this too — perhaps similarly to when somebody asks us things, we're not necessarily obliged to answer everything, right? It's a voluntary exchange, and — at least the way I would see it, with your definition of curiosity — it is an offering, an offering of connection, that may be taken up, or not, I guess.

Jennifer Edwards

Right, it's an offering of connection when you want to connect. And if you don't want to connect, you don't have to be curious — that's up for you to decide. We all have that agency to choose when we want to connect and when we don't.

Petra Agthe

Great, so that's a good clarification, hopefully a clear clarification. Is there anything else that you would like listeners to know about curiosity, which I've failed to ask?

Jennifer Edwards

I guess — let me start that over. One last point, I touched on this earlier, and I guess I would just take a moment to reiterate — in my opinion, and again, there are so many different views on things, the most important and the most powerful place to bring curiosity is towards yourself. When we can bring — remember, curiosity and judgment don't go hand in hand — when we start to bring curiosity to our own experiences, it starts to open up the door for self-compassion, for exploration of alternatives for what's not working. If you think about it, a lot of people are aware of kind of a little voice in their head, right? So, say you're in a funk, you just wake up one morning and you're just feeling like garbage, and you're just kind of down, and unmotivated, and maybe feeling a lack of confidence in the day — you're just not feeling good one day, right? Oftentimes, that little voice in the head is like, "what's wrong with you? Why don't you just get up? Why are you feeling like this?" — yelling at you in your head. That's the voice of judgment towards yourself. Bringing curiosity doesn't require a complete shift of your mood, or shifting your mood at all — you can a hundred percent still feel like garbage, and be in your funk for the day, and have the other voice be curious. Instead of yelling at you and saying, "what's wrong with you," be like, "wow, this is interesting — this is what I do for myself, look at you." A little voice will say, "wow, Jen, look at you feeling all down today." I had this — walking into a networking meeting once, I hit this proverbial wall of imposter syndrome, it just hit me square in the face, and I stopped, and I almost didn't go into the meeting, and the little voice was almost laughing at me, like, "look at you with your imposter syndrome, isn't that cute?" I just acknowledged it, and didn't make myself feel terrible about it, and just said, "what's going on? Why are you all of a sudden feeling hesitant about walking into this meeting?" And I thought of some things, and I thought, you know, that's okay, and you got this, and I went in and I had a great meeting, right? Because I didn't bring the voice of judgment to myself — I brought the voice of almost laughing, and curiosity, and compassion, and I validated myself, and I acknowledged myself, and I patted myself on the back, and off I went. So, when we can cultivate curiosity towards self, it becomes a complete game changer in our experiences — especially in veterinary medicine, where self-judgment is so pervasive, and understandably so, but it doesn't have to always be there.

Petra Agthe

Great connection — bridging, making the bridge to self-compassion by bringing curiosity to ourselves, first of all.

Jennifer Edwards

Yep.

Petra Agthe

Great, thank you for adding that — that is a gem, right at the end. Before I let you go, Jennifer, do you have any tips for the listeners about your most favourite book, or any podcast or other resources, and also, if anybody's interested, where can they find you? Is there anything else that you'd like the listeners to know about you, or about the topic?

Jennifer Edwards

Okay, yeah, I guess a book — there are so many good books out there, but one book that I think a lot of people probably have not heard of or read is called *Energy Leadership* by Bruce Schneider. Energy Leadership is a very easy read — it's written like a story, but it explains the different levels of energy that we experience during the day, demonstrated through the course of the transformation of a CEO of a company, working with a coach. The reason I bring that particular book up in this conversation is that when we bring curiosity, we're actually operating at a higher level of energy, and with that comes much more pleasant emotions, much more desirable outcomes, much higher productivity — all of that. So it doesn't just shift that conversation, it actually shifts who you are, and everything else about your experience at that time. A little bit about me — I've been in veterinary medicine a long time. I was a practice owner, and I really relate to a lot of the struggles that people go through — I've had my times of burnout, crumpled up in a heap on my kitchen floor, not wanting to get back up again. I guess I would just encourage people to seek help — whether it's therapy, coaching, whatever — because you don't have to go through that alone. It's what I do now — taking all of that, and now paying it forward into helping other leaders, as I was helped when I was in leadership, and helping leaders with the internal part of leadership, not the "what to do" and all the strategies — there are lots of consultants for that — but the mindset, the overwhelm, the stress, the feeling alone, the "I just can't cultivate the culture I want," and all of the things that make us want to throw up our hands and give up. That's a little bit about what I do, and my why. I work with clients one-on-one, coaching. I also do talks and workshops, and speak at conferences, and all of that. So, people are welcome to find me on my website, DrJenniferEdwards.com — it's "Dr" with a D-R — and on social media, my handles are all @DrJenniferEdwards. Definitely connect with me on LinkedIn, I spend a lot of time there mostly, and I would just love to connect with anybody who's interested.

Petra Agthe

Wonderful, thank you so much. As always, we will put all the links, and also your social media profiles and your website, into the show notes, so that the listeners can find you easily. So, that leaves me with saying a big thank you, Jennifer — that was a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to come and speak with me about curiosity. I'm fascinated, and I would — you make me curious about it, I can just feel there's more thinking happening. So, thank you so much, thank you.

Jennifer Edwards

Yeah, and thank you for having me. It was a wonderful conversation, and I really do hope that some of your listeners can grab even a few nuggets out of this, and bring it forth into their lives.

Petra Agthe

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much again, Jennifer.

So, this was our episode on curiosity over judgment. As always, many things in this conversation have stayed with me, and allowed me to see the skill of curiosity from an even wider range of perspectives.

If you also got curious about curiosity, why not give some of the tips that Jennifer mentioned a little go — perhaps first in a low-stakes environment, or in low-stakes relationships. Another thing you might want to check out is the show Ted Lasso, if you haven't done so yet — Season 4 is being released this month on Apple TV, so the timing is right.

As always, I'd love to know if anything particularly resonated with you from today, and I'm looking forward to our next episode together, which will hopefully come out in a few weeks. Until then — stay curious. Bye-bye.

Thank you for listening to the VetMindWorks Podcast. We hope you enjoyed it, and that you found the content helpful. If that's the case, please consider sharing and rating us, as well as providing us with feedback, including suggestions for future topics and guests. This podcast is independent and self-funded, as we see it as our way to give back to and support the profession. Thank you for listening, and see you next time.