39. Trust - with Stijn Niessen

What does trust really mean in veterinary medicine — and why does it matter so deeply for learning, leadership, wellbeing, and patient care?

In this deep conversation, host Petra Agthe speaks with Stijn Niessen about trust as the foundation of healthy professional relationships and psychologically safe workplaces.

Drawing from decades of experience in clinical practice, leadership and education, Stijn explores how trust is built through shared values, consistency, accountability, and predictability in behaviour. Together, Petra and Stijn discuss how trust allows people to learn, grow, communicate honestly, and show up more fully as themselves within teams and organisations.

The conversation explores:

• Why trust is central to veterinary medicine and client relationships
• The link between trust, psychological safety, and effective learning
• Why threat-based teaching limits creativity, growth, and rational thinking
• The importance of consistent, value-based feedback and accountability
• Generational misconceptions around feedback and resilience
• What trust has to do with veterinary ethics and the veterinary oath
• The importance of safe, empathetic working environments
• The role of trust and values beyond the workplace

The conversation contains mentions of bullying, violence, global events and human suffering, while also emphasising the need for bringing light, meaning, and hope into a turbulent world.

Where to find Stijn:
Website of the Veterinary Information Network:  https://www.vin.com/vin/

Virtual Veterinary Interships at VIN: https://www.vin.com/VVI

Stijn's value-based telemedicine platform: https://niessenforcada.com/home

Quality of Life Tool Bank for pets: https://niessenforcada.com/quality-of-life-english

Stijn's book recommendation: Ikigai by Hector Garcia and Francesca Miralles

Other Vet Mind Works podcast episodes related to this topic: 

6. Values- with Liv Oginska

21. Petra Ponders 

This podcast is in partnership with the Veterinary Information Network (VIN). More about VIN here.

We value your feedback! Please email us your thoughts, ideas and suggestions to vetmindworks@gmail.com or follow us on LinkedIn and Facebook

Want to find out more about our hosts ? Follow on LinkedIn

https://www.linkedin.com/in/petra-agthe-562bb65b

https://www.linkedin.com/in/clive-elwood-b7aba216/

Credits: 
Music- Deep Ambience by Coma-Media, Pixabay; Images for Artwork- OpenClipart-Vectors, Pixabay

Transcript

Petra Agthe: This is the Vet Mind Works podcast, a podcast for everyone in the veterinary profession who is interested in how our minds work and how to work with our minds. Our mission is to share ideas, methods, and skills, enabling us to find better ways of working and living. The content of this podcast is entirely based on our personal experiences and opinions, and does not represent the opinions of our employers or companies we work for. Podcast episodes may contain descriptions of difficult life situations and references to mental health challenges. We strive to ensure that all our published content is correct. However, we cannot accept responsibility for any issues that may arise from the practical application of the contents of this podcast.

Petra Agthe: Hello, and welcome to another episode on the Vet Mind Works podcast. I'm your host, Petra Agthe, and I'm pleased to be back after another little break. It has been a very intense time for me in the last few months with lots of different projects, so again, I have fallen a little bit behind my ideal schedule, but all we can do as humans is take things one step at a time, isn't it?

 So… Nevertheless, I am very happy to be here with this episode, because it is one that I've been looking forward to for a very long time. We are looking at the topic of trust, and. Trust is something that has intrigued me for as long as I can think, and I have recorded an episode on it before, but that was more my own reflections. This time, I have invited a guest to speak with me and explore this topic collaboratively, the reason why I think trust is so important is that it is the foundation of functional relationships and also a key ingredient to psychological safety and healthy workplaces. This guest is Stijn Nissen.

Stijn graduated from Ghent University, and after an internship at Glasgow University and a residency at the Royal Veterinary College, he became a diplomat of the European College of Veterinary Internal Medicine. Stijn completed a PhD in diabetes mellitus, quality of life assessment, and gene therapy at Newcastle University Medical School and the RVC. During his 16-year faculty career at the RVC, Stijn was active in referral clinics, teaching students and research, ultimately becoming professor in internal medicine, as well as one of the clinical directors of Europe's largest small animal referral hospital. He has found new cures for old diseases, published numerous scientific papers, written chapters and co-edited key textbooks. Stijn also co-founded an independent value-based veterinary specialist consultancy company and also leads VIN Europe and the VIN Veterinary Mentorship Academy, opening up access to specialist input to the wider world, and believing that every practitioner should be able to enjoy the unique level of clinical support, personal development, and mentorship normally only encountered within university settings. One of the key programs trying to achieve this is the newly created Virtually VIN Veterinary Internship, and you can find out more about that later in the episode. 

Just a couple of editorial notes. One is that we now offer transcripts, which we hope will make the episodes more accessible. And another thing is that Stijn and I are also going to talk about some heavier topics in the episode today, including violence, but it was important for us to leave that part of the conversation in the episode as well, because it relates to our lives as humans. And we are both very passionate about the need of finding peaceful solutions to conflicts. So, while this is an episode of trust, we did veer into other domains. And I just wanted you to have a heads up that there are parts of the conversation which are more serious.

Before you hear more about our conversation about trust, hear a little bit more about our partners VIN Europe, which Stijn is actually part of.

Petra Agthe: This podcast is supported by VIN Europe. Since 1991, the Veterinary Information Network has been helping colleagues with providing all the knowledge you need for your next case, instant access to drug formularies, over 260 veterinary specialists in every specialty imaginable, weekly rounds, CPD and an own virtual veterinary internship program, you name it, VIN has got it. Are you ready to join this independent community of nearly 100,000 colleagues? VIN is and always will be independent for vets by vets. Free trial memberships are available on vin.com, and if you're a student, VIN is absolutely free.

Petra Agthe: So, it's an absolute great pleasure for me to introduce Stijn, who has made time for us today. I know that he's got a very, very full diary. And I really wanted the opportunity with Stijn to discuss the topic of trust, because it is something that come up previously in our discussions that we had. So yeah, thank you very much for making the time, first of all.

Stijn Niessen: You're very welcome. It's an honor. Nice to be here. And I've listened to many other episodes. So yeah, learned a lot from it as well. So I feel honored to be a little part of this wonderful series. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Petra Agthe: And actually, well, you are a big part, because you're also part of VIN Europe, and VIN Europe are our partners, so it is a very mutual partnership and collaboration. So

 yeah, and thank you for coming on to talk about the fascinating topic of trust and I think sometimes it can be really helpful to perhaps just create a baseline and work out what.

What do you mean when you talk about trust?

Stijn Niessen: Everyone can choose their own definition. There's no authority here or police that says that's the wrong definition. Maybe in different phases of life or different environments, the definition changes as well. For me, the definition of trust has grown as I have grown older and wiser, I don't know, but we just change and then have a different perception of reality and truth, I guess, and it has grown for me to be really interrelated to values. So, when you've got an environment or people where you know the values of, and you can align with those values. That for me is then trustworthy and creates trust. So, there is therefore, although you don't know what happens in the future or what could happen in the future, there is a framework there that there is a predictability in the response of that party, of that environment, of those people. And therefore, you can trust that environment, despite there being many unpredictable parameters, anything can happen. And some of it might not be nice either. So, negativity can arise on the horizon, but in that value-based environment of which you align with those values, there is trust.

Petra Agthe: I love your perspective of, yes, this can change, this can evolve. This is not necessarily fixed in stone, not for individuals and even within an individual understanding of something of a concept can grow and adapt. And yes, there are different definitions. Different literature also has got different definitions, but values are also something that I've come across that are a big part of trust. So what you, what I got from that, what you had just shared is that values for you are an integral part of creating trust because it's through those values, making them explicit. You know what the values are, you know what to expect. You mentioned alignment, so I guess you can check whether that aligns with what your values are and then it brings predictability and even if life then brings all sorts of storms on us, I suppose, it creates a degree of predictability, consistency, and perhaps certainty of how certain things will be dealt with. 

Stijn Niessen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and if we extend that then to our working environments, or maybe one has a supervisor or a manager or even a client in a pet treatment relationship. If you can trust those parties because they will likely give a predictable response to any given situation, then that makes for a more stable environment, and probably better outcomes as well. And I don't know about you, but when I perform in an environment where there is mutual trust, I perform better. And that's not always a given, you know? The traditional supervisory structures we've known in veterinary medicine and other areas in the past, especially, um, you know, vet school or residency programs. Uh, they… they, in the past at times have been actually quite harsh and focused on telling you what is going wrong, and… which is understandable, because learning through negativity goes faster, but is very limited. Uh, we know that also from developmental psychology, so if you punish a dog for doing something, then they will very quickly learn, I shouldn't do that, but they will also then, when you don't look, go and do it. So, the big gain is, of course, in positive learning. And I guess if there is a, uh, trust… trusting relationship between client and, uh, treating, uh, clinician, uh, resident and supervisor, student, and the… the whole, uh, university structure, then the real deep and long-term learning will take place. And therefore, for me, trust is essential in all of that. That also means that if we make a mistake, we can count on it being discussed. So it's not that, okay, because I know you. Well, we won't talk about that mistake. It's okay. It will go away. That's almost being unpredictable because then you choose to wave it away with one particular relationship and you might focus on it with another type of relationship. So there is accountability in that either way in the positive sense. We're positive when something goes wrong, but we are not afraid to point our finger at it when something needs improvement and that reliability is important. We sometimes speak about, um, you know, the differences between generations, and that giving feedback is now demanded to be differently than maybe it was, uh, when you and I did our residencies and so on. Yeah, so, so, so I think actually, it's not that different, I think, across generations when feedback is done based on the same values, the same steadiness, the same accountability, that it will be the same for the same people in the same situation it will be well received in the long run by all generations. So, I don't like sometimes when we hear about all these millennials, these Gen Z, you know, they can't take feedback. I think they perfectly can deal with feedback if it is consistent and we don't need to be overly harsh either. We can be empathetic, we can be kind, we can choose our words carefully. But if we truly want to have a trusting relationship, uh, we need to be consistent and truthful and value-based every single time, and therefore also not shy away from a difficult situation to tell somebody who might not initially receive that feedback well, because they perhaps are in a sensitive time in their lives. If we shy away from that, that actually is unpredictability, which is quite paradoxical, because, you know, us veterinarians, we are a sensitive breed, and we're, on average, highly empathetic. So bringing a difficult message is something that causes our heart rate to go up, right? And we feel it in our abdomen as well, like, oh, I need to tell somebody who I know would like to hear something else, because I would like to hear something else that I'm doing well. But actually, you know, improvement would benefit that individual as well. So we now first need to tell them that it's not going to be going as well as they thought, and therefore we need to be honest about it. But in the long run being consistent in their behaviour, I think, shows that you have the right values and the right vision for the future of that individual, and therefore, you create a trusting relationship. And then, you know, magic happens, really. They grow. We grow, and also there's room for creativity there as well. Rather than just copying the supervisor, they can then become themselves, taking bits of the supervisor that are great, and modifying bits of the supervisor that actually, can be modified towards a version that fits the individual that is being supervised better.

Petra Agthe: Gosh. There's so much in there. There is so much in there. I absolutely…

Stijn Niessen: I warned you about my tangents. 

Petra Agthe: Well, I love I love those tangents. There's absolutely nothing wrong with them. You captured already so much a lot of things that I was going to ask anyway. So, it's it's absolutely fine. You were very proactive in that sense. So all is good. All is good. I particularly…what resonated, or what particularly resonated for me, was the… Well, two things. One is that threat-based learning is not particularly helpful if you have to navigate particularly something like a complex profession where you have to make very difficult decisions and it's not as simple as telling a dog: ‘don't go and eat food off the table’, right? It's not as easy as that. So it's a lot more complex, and even with dog behavior, we now know that if you want lasting results, you better go with positive and collaborative methods rather than threat based learning so that is one thing and I think there is also from everything that is out there in the literature and that we now know is that there is a neurophysiological reason for this better learning as well and that is because our limbic system is powered down, whereas if… if we… if we perceive a threat, it's a limbic system, and our flight-or-flight response kicks in, which takes, really, a big part of our rational thinking offline. And so, if we build this trust we can learn together better. We can learn together better. That's something you also mentioned. So, we also learn. It applies to different situations. You mentioned creativity. I like that and how then somebody can build their own version of how they can play with sort of certain, taking different components rather than actually sticking to a rigid scheme. That's why it's also called the art of medicine, right? It's the science of medicine and it's the art. Having some degree of creativity and big picture thinking there. So I really love that. Thank you. And also the fact that it doesn't mean that we only discuss nice things, it actually means that we can discuss difficult topics together, and that we're trusting ourselves to do that in a way that is predictable, aligned with our values, with kindness, and mutual support. And through that, we grow.

Stijn Niessen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And if we think about our profession, I mean, it's all about trust. If I had to sum up what is the key ingredient to our profession, it's trust. Uh, you know, a client walks through the clinic door, the client will do that on the basis of trust, hopefully. You know, if they don't, it's actually a recipe for trouble, and we recognize that, I think all of us as well, from past experiences as well. It's really difficult slash impossible to work with a client who doesn't trust you. It goes from worse to worse really with those patients as well. So we actually have benefited from a huge deal of trust over the years from the beginning of our profession. And that is something we really need to focus on as a profession to protect as well. And, and I guess in, in light of this, I, I know, uh, you know, we, we speak in current times with, uh, lots of, conversations about our profession, our perception of our profession, the perception of the outside world of our profession, and I think a conversation about trust is important in that context as well. So clients need to be able to come into our clinic and know that whatever happens, it's going to be based on a certain set of values, and that's the beauty of our profession because we all take the oath, right? At the end of the day, we can be held accountable according to our oath, and we've spoken about this outside of the podcast before. I've always had some difficulties with bigger structures in the veterinary landscape, where the ones taking decisions are not under that same oath. I think there's tension there, and that's something I think we shouldn't shy away from as a profession either. We should look to see that the ethical domain is really being regulated by us, the veterinary profession: Vets, but also nurses. All those under oath should really be the people where the buck stops. Or maybe there should be an oath invented for those that are non-veterinary, but that enter the veterinary domain in a managerial or other business capacity, because we can't even blame the business managers

 for saying, well, I want you to sell option A as a treatment more than option B, because there's more profit margin, because that's how they were trained, you know? They went to their own universities, and they were told, you know, if you do that, choose option A, because the profit margin is higher your company can make more money and therefore can feed more families. And there's nothing wrong with that either. You know, we often think about money as dirty, but no, at the end of the day, it ensures that that family, you know, has a good life and maybe their children can go to university and, you know, they come from a family when nobody ever in the past went to university. Well, that's a good thing, right? That's also digging into good, decent values. However, we know that in the real world that optimizing profit margins can get itself into a place at odds with animal welfare or the interest of the animal-human bond. And that is where I think the backstop is the veterinary oath, or an oath of some kind, and that has been lacking there. And when the business side can actually make decisions that push us as clinicians and nurses into a situation where we have to choose between suffering negative consequences or stand up for our oath. Yeah, that is a situation I think we should look ourselves into the mirror as a veterinary community and see whether or not we can work something out where that is avoided in the first place. So, I'm not making a pure anti-corporate sound here, because I think there are many ways in which it can benefit us. I think corporate has also taught us about good HR and so on, you know, we know of plenty of independent practices where also bad stuff happened or is happening, you know, so there's lots to be learned about the running of organizations in a way that people have a place, feel heard, are protected in all kinds of ways and some business environments are better at that than a veterinary clinic, so I think we should be continuing this journey and maybe an oath of some kind that encompasses the whole veterinary landscape, regardless of what background you came with entering the landscape, could be an answer there. Going back to the topic, trust, right? Oath and trust. If we then commit ourselves to that oath and can be held accountable that provides a structure from which we can work and build.

Petra Agthe: Thank you, Stijn. That's a rich exploration at the sort of 10,000 feet level, really, and how really also sometimes you were talking about values and thank you for actually being so differentiated and because I also, I very much agree with many things you said there, including the fact that you cannot blame people to make the decisions they've been trained for and for the values they stand, because that is another that's a value system. Veterinary is a value system. And it's a question of how, where is, where are, there will be inevitable tensions and the tensions are there in independent practices as well, right? I mean, we need to make money to actually feed ultimately our families. Yeah. And at the same time, how do we do that responsibly, transparently? And in a way that doesn't compromise the veterinary oath. 

Stijn Niessen: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, and I think we need not just the veterinary oath, there's a real gap missing there, and I'm sure you're a fan of this concept as well. I blur out concepts all the time, I know that, but one that I'm particularly interested in developing as well is the fact, you know, we've got the veterinary oath. If you take that literal, then if you've got a practice, a clinic, and you need to see 100 patients a day, and because they are ill and they can't go anywhere else, you will, if you follow the oath, you do that to your own detriment. You know, you can't sleep. So there's a tension there as well, right? Because we need to take care of ourselves in order to take care of others and our patients. So in a way there needs to be either an adaptation of the veterinary oath or an additional oath that is a backstop for any destructive patterns arising, which are solely focused on satisfying the oath.  And I guess if you think more holistically about the oath, yes, we need to take care of ourselves in order to take care of others. So maybe that's the element in which you need to be looking for answers in the veterinary oath, or there needs to be a parallel oath in which we say we, um, always have to aim for safe, empathetic, uh, working environments in which we commit to the veterinary oath. Um, and I think that's another area where we can have way more development than we've had so far. Now, fantastic people working in this arena, right? For example our friends from VetLed, and it's always dangerous when you start shouting out names. I know there are many, many more, but they jumped to mind there as within the UK and doing fantastic work on that as well, and making that connection between patient safety and working environment. So there is a connection there and being able to adhere to the veterinary oath. But I think it, yeah, the veterinary oath probably needs to become a little bit more worthy, worthy as in more words, in order to do justice to that element.

Petra Agthe: Yeah, thank you. It's complex, for sure. There's loads and loads of different influences and pressures and…tensions, and yes, sometimes there can be a sort of tension of values in ourselves as well because we want to look after a patient and we need to look after ourselves and after people who are important to us outside work as well. It's not always easy to navigate this.

Stijn Niessen: There is, um, and I mean, I've sat at rounds, discussions in, uh, busy hospitals, and then had to run off to get kids out of nursery, because the nursery literally would close, and I would feel inside that tension, you know, I'm leaving behind my residents, my colleagues, who then have to compensate for that. But then again, you know, it's the conclusion, I shouldn't have a family, you know, or should I neglect the kids? So we've got those conflicts all the time, and yes, it is complex, but maybe it's it's not as well, because if we think about it, I think we all work hard, you know? I struggle to think of a colleague who does not work hard, so we're always actually in the orange or red zone. So surely we can define a less orange and more green zone, and it would be well within the working day, especially if we think about all the emotional recuperation we need to actually do in order to recover from a day's work. And yeah, the answer probably is being more clinical and more hygienic about our time management and therefore it doesn't matter if you've got six kids or no kids, you still need to recuperate in order to then the next day show up in the best version of yourself. And those conversations I've had in the various environments in the past as well and once you as a team started see things like that, lots is certainly possible. Certainly. Uh, the fact that we've done things like that for 50 years doesn't mean we need to do that over the next 50 years as well. And once you start playing around with that and freshly looking at the way we work, it really becomes exciting to experiment with that and see that actually everyone is benefiting from setting up a framework that benefits those that care. And again, making the link with patient safety and the veterinary oath. They don't appear that paradoxical anymore then. Um, in that process, you also need to trust, once again, going back to the topic, because if you, if you go on that journey as an organization, as a team to, to seek where there could be a better balance for all involved, one needs to. Yeah, have some trust in each other that you do it for the right reasons, and that it's not taking a shortcut to benefit your own private situation, but actually that you trust that you do this together because you all believe in that that's the way forward, that that serves our common values. 

Petra Agthe: Yeah, yeah. So, um trust in the other to be accountable for their behaviours to be supportive as much as supporting and also one thing that you said in there also make me think how, if that is done well, and if we are able to create this environment, how it's then easier also to show up as the person who we want to be, which then feeds back into that trust, because we are more predictable. Our behaviours are going to be more calm, they're going to be more measured, we're coming from a more grounded place because we're experiencing less of that tension inside ourselves, so then we kind of enter almost a bit of a positive spiral.

Stijn Niessen: Absolutely, yeah. And when people show up as themselves in any environment, but also therefore a working environment, that's what you want, you know? And then you figure out, even if you figure out that they are not a match for that working environment, you better figure that out sooner rather than later. Um, when people show up not as themselves, that's where trouble arrives, because, um, they're not happy, you know? They're… they're therefore, uh, potentially complaining about all kinds of stuff. They want more salary, you know? But it's not 9 out of 10 times, uh, about that salary, it's about the fact that they are not happy in that environment, and therefore we should seek to support ourselves and each other always to be able to be ourselves. Because the predictability comes from that, the recognition of the values come from that, and very often, you know, we chose this profession for similar reasons, and therefore, very often, we recognize that even the people you don't like at work actually share the same values. And once you realize that, you actually dislike them less and like them more. One of the exercises I sometimes do in teams that are not seeing eye to eye or not gelling as well is to just get in the room and go back to basics and say, why do you get up in the morning? Why are we here? And then build it back up, because often, especially in complex organizations, we, you know, we try to get our project done, and therefore, why don't you give me that? Or why do you do that? Our project is not advancing because of you doing that, but when you take it back to the basis, then actually having people vocalize that in the same room has often a real galvanizing effect. So, I would recommend it to anyone who sees that the lovely individuals we have in our organizations are not finding each other do that.

Petra Agthe: What a lovely idea and what a lovely thing to do. I think it also, it probably shows and I don't know, I mean, it might work for different reasons, but I was just, as you were telling that, I was imagining myself being in a room with a group of people, and everybody's saying something, and I think there is something about seeing that other human and their desires, their hopes, and their… their idea of what they want to contribute, and so it's easier to actually see the other person as a human being who is actually just trying to do their bit to contribute to the whole thing and less as a sort of irritating person who's getting into my way of doing the things I want to do. So, so yeah, I think going back to basics, going back to human to human connection and asking the question, why are we here? What's the overall goal? And what you were saying also reminded me of a quote that I recently read. You know that I'm a fan of Ted Lasso. Honestly, I'm totally obsessed. 

Stijn Niessen: Can't blame you, can't blame you.

Petra Agthe: One of the actors in there and the scriptwriter, I recently came across a quote from him which said something along the lines of, “I believe that if you look close enough at anyone, you can love them”. So even if you find somebody really irritating, if you look close enough at them, and you kind of, just for a moment try to look at what, what really is, what is, who is this person? What are they doing? What are their interests? And so you will find things that you can like about them.

Stijn Niessen: Absolutely. No, I can see that. And, and, and sometimes it's the, the, the thing that irritates you from somebody else is actually something you would like to be able to do yourself, or you're envious about that that person dares to do it and you don't. So it often is directly related to something you think about yourself. So there's a huge learning opportunity there as well. So yeah, I can resonate with that. 

Petra Agthe: Yeah, that's that's a really good point. I can honestly, I could we need to make some time definitely to have a have a conversation outside this so much, so much more to explore. And I've gone totally off my path of pre-prepped questions, because this conversation has evolved just so beautifully, so I might just probably…just in the last 10 minutes, I might just pop in a few questions just to kind of summarize, or just explore perhaps some corners we haven't covered yet. 

So, we looked at what trust is, what we need trust for, and I was also interested what made trust so important for you in our line of work. You explored that, I think, really well in terms of, well, you called it, it's the very ingredient of our profession. So it's really important how we work together. And it plays into the quality of our work, it plays into how we experience work. Is there anything else that comes to your mind that makes it important to you that we probably haven't mentioned yet?

Stijn Niessen: Yeah, so, and we live in turbulent times, right? So, and we can't isolate ourselves from what's going on outside of our clinics and so on. And yeah, I must say my trust has been shaken quite a bit because when you sort of live your life, you sort of align with what goes on in other parts of your life, and you sort of get taught at school about history and what went well in history and what we should seek to improve, and you might see where I'm going with this, but if I follow my values. I and which I seek to do, I have to also point towards what is happening right now in the world where forces are at play that I don't think represent good values. So there is a political style of bullying. And because of, the implications, financial or others, I can see the leaders around me, uh, which are hired to lead, uh, not portray the values that we all have been taught at school, you know? At school one of the things that they do in the Netherlands, where our kids go to school, is they have this training about bullying, and it focuses on… bullying has different shapes and forms, but when it happens, first of all, you need to see it. And then you need to call it out. And then you need to do something. So, there are three elements. So, because if you don't see it, it still happens. It's bad. If you're quiet, you are sort of complicit. And if you don't do anything about it, same thing. So, they say, uh, basically, literally translate, translate it. See it, say it, stop it. That's the three things that they teach our kids about bullying. Well, why are we teaching that in the elementary school, that when we, as adults then, when we see obvious wrong going on, we either look away, or we don't say it, and we don't do everything in our power to stop it? The thing that comes to mind, and you know that because I've been very vocal about it in all my platforms, is that I don't think a genocide should ever happen to anyone, by anyone when, when I am vocal about it, sometimes, uh, come back to me and say, yeah, yeah, but it's difficult, you know, because, you know, uh, because of history I don't think it is difficult, and that comes back to the trust topic as well. If you follow your values, you need to be consistent. So then, even those that have been victim of genocide they never ever have a reason or an apology to then go on to commit genocide. And in a way, you need to protect everyone from committing genocide because you alway know that it doesn't lead to any place good. So, we need to be predictable in our response, um, in that area as well. And I must say, it weighs heavily on my mental health, um, to, to, to realize that I live in a world where values that I thought were given and, you know, maybe I took them for granted that I thought were being shared by mainstream…apparently either not shared by mainstream in such way that we follow those rules that the elementary school kids get taught. See it, say it, stop it, and that's why I have chosen to be vocal about that always with the angle that this is not a political point, and it's never against people, it's always for all people. Yeah. And, and, and, and that I, I think I'm a big, big, well, fan sounds wrong, but I've been influenced heavily by Anne Frank, you know, read her diary. I grew up in the Netherlands, so that's sort of part and parcel of that, but read her diary dozens of times. And I sort of silently, without saying it, made the commitment to myself that whenever situations like this arise again, in whichever shape, I will not be the silent one. And I hope that by adopting that approach of being pro human regardless of background, it can inspire others to have that courage as well, because I realize that it comes across black and white. I do think it is sort of black and white, sort of, I shouldn't say sort of, it is black and white. When you phrase it like this. I'm aware of sensitivities that could be associated with this topic. I'm acutely aware. I've almost brought up like that to be acutely aware of that. I feel it. But by placing it outside of the political domain, I think. That shows you that it is a black and white issue, and never again means never again. So yeah, I know we might be going into areas that perhaps this podcast is not meant for, but maybe this podcast is also meant for it, because it comes straight interconnection with my values, and that's where trust is being built, and so, you know, you… you probably… well, I can't have a different personality within my profession to outside of my profession. I'm that same person. And therefore, maybe people can trust me as a manager, as an employer, but also as a clinician, because I'm consistent across the different spheres in which I operate as a human being.

Petra Agthe: Some profound thoughts there, and again, a lot of that resonates, um, obviously having for me, growing up in Germany, there was a very similar exposure and reflection, I think. And… yeah and it absolutely comes to the whole topic of trust, doesn't it? And humanity, values, what are our values?  Do we stand up for our values in a way that is inclusive, in a way that calls in everybody? Because, as you say, it is for everybody, it's not against anyone. We know that ultimately, violence is never really a solution as such. It creates its own dynamics. So…just on your point, whether or not this is a place in the podcast or not, whatever goes outside in the world is also going on inside the veterinary profession, so I do think this, and these are questions that as we are humans, and we're operating as humans in our veterinary world, these are things that all of us bring with us to work as well, isn't it? So, I do… I do think that.

Stijn Niessen: Yeah, and maybe it is connected to our veterinary oath as well, right? We stand up for those without a voice, and maybe, you know. It's actually intrinsic to being a vet that we also call out situations where voices are being suppressed and we dare to say it. We are masters in difficult conversations. We are masters in recognizing suffering that might be silent. So, and yeah, I said before, trust is the one ingredient that is most essential to our profession, and I think this is where trust in our values also comes to a head.

Petra Agthe: It does. And what you mentioned there, hearing the silent voices, it also has to do ultimately that difficult conversation that also has feeds into psychological safety as a concept to actually have that trust to be able to voice this. And the trust that this view and perspective is received in a constructive way and that we can have constructive discussions around these difficult topics, even if perhaps our values may differ from one another for legitimate reasons, which may sometimes also be the case.

Stijn Niessen: Absolutely

Petra Agthe: Well, I could, I could ask you so, so much more, but just being respectful of your time, I think we might leave it at this point Stijn, except for one question that I ask everybody: is there anything else you would really like to say? So you, is there anything, um, that we haven't talked about that you feel you really also would like to add?

Stijn Niessen: Um, well, you know, I can talk for hours, uh, but, um, I, I think, um. I would like to convey my gratitude to the profession and to everyone working within the profession in this world that is turbulent, at times dark you all still give me hope, in a way. The fact that people care about this little chihuahua, you know, with honking cough, and that we, you know, develop research on that and talk at conferences about it. You could, on the one hand, you could really minimalize it and say, well, look at this world, it's on fire, you know, and you choose to do that. I actually flip that around and say, because there are individuals, highly intelligent, empathetic, sensitive individuals who choose to do that. That gives me hope. So, um, thank you, profession, for… for providing light, um, in this world, um, providing an ability for, uh, sensitive individuals to build a life and to enjoy a life to a satisfactory level of fulfillment in their life's journey. We see that and that's maybe part a plug as well, uh, in our virtual veterinary internship, this, uh, clinical and non-clinical mentorship program, uh, Yaiza Forcada and I built. As part of the Veterinary Information Network where we have now helped over 700 colleagues either out of vet school to find their feet in practice but also mid-career or after a career break refine their love for the profession when you see all those people with so much, supported by the Veterinary Information Network, the members of, uh, the network who pay their membership fees, then please go to vin.com forward slash VVI for virtual veterinary internship. Maybe you know a colleague who could do with. Bit of extra help. During a year with an independent mentor, a clinical and non-clinical curriculum, then please refer them to that program, which we are very passionate about and we hope can help many more colleagues across the globe in the future.

Petra Agthe: That is wonderful, and, yes, I was going to offer you a plug zone anyway, so thank you, thank you for bringing that up, um, as well. So anything else, anywhere else where people can find you? If they're really interested to hear more from you about you, clinically, non-clinically, where can they find you? 

Stijn Niessen: Yeah, loads of places, I guess. There's a new website, which is qol-pet.com, qualityoflifepet.com, qol-pet.com, where we're collecting quality of life tools for pets and owners, and when we're talking about trust, you know, if you… how can you trust that you're doing the right thing if you don't measure the ultimate outcome of what a vet does, which is improving quality of life? So that's one I recommend people to use, free to use, independent in their clinical practices. I am one of the consultants on the Veterinary Information Network, so check that out as well. You can do free trials on that to see whether or not that helps you in your clinic perform better and to hire a greater degree of satisfaction. Where else? I'll be at London Vet Show. I don't know if this podcast will come out, but otherwise, the next London Vet Show will be there, and no doubt I will be there as well. So, feel free to talk to me, because I love talking to colleagues. That's something that gives me pleasure, energy and enriches my life hugely. Book wise, because I know the series, the podcast series very well, and I know that people gave great recommendations in the past. One book that I would recommend people, and it's sort of on the light side, which I think can sometimes be good, and one of those books you can read just prior to going to bed is a book called Ikigai. And you might know this, Petra, so it's a Japanese phenomenon, difficult to translate a word. But I would recommend people who are questioning their job choice because it actually touches upon many of the things we might feel at some stage during our careers. I could have done a different career, might have gotten more impact. And it talks about the very simple things in life that actually might be the biggest things in life. Maybe a really quick anecdote. There's this sushi chef in Tokyo. He's got six tables in his restaurant and he's world famous. Everyone wants to go there. He's got a waiting list of two years. A-list Hollywood people want to go there and can't get a table because there's a waiting list. And he's being phoned every week to say, come on, we can make a franchise out of it, open a franchise in LA and in Berlin, in Amsterdam, London, you know, we can make t-shirts, we can make cookbooks, TV series. And consistently he says no. And the reason why he says no is because he is in his flow. He's doing exactly what he wants to do. He loves seeing the faces of those six tables in his little restaurant once he has served the best sushi in the world, with the best fish in the world, and he is satisfied with that. And he has the wisdom to see that once he opens up those franchises, that cookbook deal, his life is going to change away from what gives him energy. And he doesn't desire to be more than that, because he's very satisfied with having that restaurant and being the best chef in the world without, you know, having to be everywhere, all the time. So, I think there's a lesson in that, and that anecdote from that book really stuck with me. Maybe it will stick with others as well. 

Petra Agthe: Yeah. Thank you so much. I think that's something I would… I don't know the book. I know… I'm familiar with the concept, but not the book, so I will look that one up. Sounds like something up my street, really, and thank you for the words of hope, and a call for contentment, and perhaps also recognising what we do have, and not only looking at… you mentioned that at some point earlier in the conversation, not always getting hooked up on the bits that don't work, but also look at what does work.

Stijn Niessen: Absolutely. 

Petra Agthe: So thank you so much for joining us for a, well, quite deep episode on a topic that is very important, and I really loved the conversation, Stijn, so thank you so much for making time for this, and I look forward to the next opportunity to speak with you.

Stijn Niessen: Same here. Thank you for having me. And again, thank you all colleagues listening to this for giving the world hope. You matter, your work matters. Thank you for that.

Petra Agthe: Thank you so much.

Petra Agthe: So this was our episode on trust with Stijn Niessen. It is an episode that has resonated deeply with me. If you have enjoyed it, you may also be interested in some previous episode that are touching on the same or similar themes, and I will put the links in the show notes. As always, you would also do us a great favor by following and rating this podcast. I very much look forward to welcoming you to another episode soon, and wish you well until then.

Bye bye.

Petra Agthe: Thank you for listening to the Vet MindWorks podcast. We hope that you enjoyed it and that you found the content helpful. If this is the case, please consider sharing and rating us, as well as providing us with feedback, including suggestions for future topics and guests. This podcast is independent and self-funded, as we see it as our way to give back to and support the profession. Thank you for listening, and see you next time.